Gorean quote: Pity

[Kimba~]

This has always been one of my favorite book quotes:

"According to the Gorean way of thinking pity humiliates both he who pities and he who is pitied. According to the Gorean way, one may love but one may not pity."
Outlaw of Gor, p. 31

It's like a solid gold quote.  It's not open to contextual questions.  It's not regional or cultural.  It's veracity is not dependent on the credibility of the person who said it.  It's not somebody's personal opinion.  It's not a theme that is going to be developed over the course of a story.

It's just crystal clear Tarl Cabot, speaking as the narrator, summing up something that is a fundamental truth, pertaining to all Goreans.  Stated, dropped, and never contradicted.

[Medi]

I love the quote, it says what is Gorean, vs what is Urthen.  When I was new to Gor, and r/p'ing a barbarian, I took pity on a slave that was being punished.  I was punished for displaying the emotion, and I grew from it.  I have found wonderful music videos on You-tube, and many have that quote, and explain it.  I think that the barbarian who showed the most growth in the JN novels was Elinor Brinton.  When Rask was shown to her, tied up, tortured and almost dead, she felt pity.  But, at the end, she became a Gorean...she didn't poison Bosk...because that would have dishonored Rask...and herself.  She was ready to accept death for her decision, but Bosk showed why he rose to his position...why he was the epitome of a Gorean Warrior...why he is the central character of so many novels...why he understood the Warrior Codes, and spared her life.

Medi

[Raziel]

Indeed, something that has not be questioned but what is pity and how is it humiliating to the Gorean?

If one cannot pity, can one be moved by pity?  To be moved by pity and perform an act out of pity would it not also be deduced that in effect, he pitied by action?

Humiliation is a derivative of the word humble.  Can a warrior or any gorean for that matter not be humbled or should pride and dignity rule absolutely?  Can a warrior not be polite or respectful or should it always be cruel or rude?

Note that to the quote, Tarl references pity by stating "According to the Gorean way" twice.  He is of earth and not bound by the Gorean way of thinking, so as the narrator explaining that this is the consensus on Gor.  But not all Goreans are in this ilk.  Is it truly a fundamental truth and never contradicted or can it be contradicted by Goreans, as our hero Tarl, born of earth?

Pity as well can be used as a teaching method.  Are we degrading ourselves or humiliating because we show pity if used as a tool to teach?  To draw out a reaction, like say, retaliation or revenge? 

For example:

If I should show pity on a warrior, bloodied and beaten in the training arena, and I stand above him victorious in his lesson, would my pride (in opposition of pity) teach him anything or would it simply make me appear cruel and arrogant?  If I utter the words, "Pity you were beaten" or to that degree and in anger that I should suggest "pity" upon the warrior, he retaliates with reaction to the concept of the "gorean way of thinking" because pity is humiliating, he fights and no longer seems weak or beaten.

Could this be acceptable because it is used as a learning tool?  As he overcame his own self defeat to pick himself up and fight, in effect he learns a lesson about his own boundaries and abilities even in the face of what appeared to be utter defeat?

This is a good topic and I feel deserves some discussion.

For further insight in such a Gorean philosophy as pity, try looking this over and see what we all can decipher about the Gorean way of thinking.

http://www.gor-now.net/delphius2002/id139.htm

Raz

[Kimba~]

Study of Luther's Scrolls is part of the PClaw training regimen.  My post was heavily influenced by those one, where Luther talks about crieteria for evaluating book quotes (http://www.gor-now.net/delphius2002/id148.htm).

But everybody agrees that Luther makes some mistakes.  I think the scroll on pity is too far afield.  I think Luther went way, way out there.

The thing I wonder about is, how does this effect the person who IS pitied, compared to the one who does the pitying?

It seems that the person who is pitied is more or less blameless.  They don't control whether the other person pities them or not.  And I don't know how they are humiliated if they don't even know they are pitied.

But, the person doing the pitying, that's a person who is actively doing something that is not Gorean.

[Raziel]

But everybody agrees that Luther makes some mistakes.  I think the scroll on pity is too far afield.  I think Luther went way, way out there.

It seems that the person who is pitied is more or less blameless.  They don't control whether the other person pities them or not.  And I don't know how they are humiliated if they don't even know they are pitied.

But, the person doing the pitying, that's a person who is actively doing something that is not Gorean.

Good points.  Yes, Luther did make some mistakes because then again he wasnt the founder of the Gorean world.  But then again can we also say that Norman himself makes numerous mistakes and contradictions throughout the books themselves?

There are several key elements that can be related from Nietzsche's view that can answer the question of Why is the Gorean way of thinking on pity to such a degree.

And yet according to the quote, regardless of the blame, regardless of whether or not they can control being pitied, the quote is finite in saying that both the pitier and pitied are humiliated.  And in such, it is simply against the Gorean way, isnt it?

If one wants to point a finger at the pitier, then one must ask and ponder the nature of his/her pity.  Is it just a statement to invoke a response or, is it, which I feel from that quote, the actual feelings of pity that are humiliating?

For Goreans to show feelings or emotions, often than not, are viewed as being weak in some manner depending on the emotion.  Is that to say all Goreans are heartless?  No of course not because everyone feels.  The underlying point is never defined by that quote.  Pity....Pity....a feeling of pity upon another is humiliating to both or is it...pity...pity...a word to invoke reaction because of the Gorean way of thinking.  

Perhaps that is the true nature of the quote.  How do we define what is meant by stating "pity"?  Can we just state it or must we feel it to be considered humiliated or humiliating?

Could Tarl be blameless to act upon pity?  To be moved by pity himself?  He is of earth and yet Gorean and exemplifes to many what Goreans should be or can become.

Does Tarl never feel pity or humility?  And is he not Gorean or is it for that instance, for that moment in time, he is simply doing something that is not Gorean?

Again, could the use of pity be used as a tool for learning?  This is a question that could shed some light as well to the whole theme of a gorean way of thinking.

Can, we as Goreans, still be moved by pity?  If pity is not Gorean, does it only exist among the slaves that intertwine the word usage of pity, mercy and forgiveness?

If we are moved by pity, is that humiliating?  If we only looked at the quote as being finite and fundamental then could it be reasoned that all forms of pity is humiliating?  

For example, if a slave begs for pity upon herself for screwing up something versus the potential death or punishment and the Master does nothing, did he just grant that slave pity?  And is that in essence humiliating for him as well?

Something to help turn the gears of everyone and perhaps shed some light on a topic that is often used but deemed humiliating in both the books and online.

Let's see if there are other views out there as well.  Certainly in such an open discussion there are quite a number of people that have an opinion on that quote and the use of pity and not just myself, Kimba or Medi.  We are trying to provoke thoughts and as many people we have here on Gor from many different backgrounds and interpretations of the books, certainly there can be tons of views on such a broad topic as pity and its affect upon the Gorean and their way of thinking.

Or should I just ring up the United Nations to see if we can get a difference in thoughts and opinions?

Come on people.

Raz

[RAGNAR]

Goreans live their emotions as well as their lives in ways that cannot be summed up in any brief. It is always best to show how a Gorean lives.



Goreans rejoice in their emotions and in the world surrounding them. Earth people are subjected from the beginning to earth sensibilities, Goreans to Gorean sensibilities.



One from earth can learn to be Gorean, but a Gorean would find life on earth nearly impossible and unbearable. However, the Gorean would face it as he was raised and taught and would find a way to dominate or die trying.



A Gorean can feel all the emotions anyone else can. It is how they view matters and act upon them that makes them different.



If a Tuchuk dies, killed by a bosk, Tuchuk is saddened, but they also are proud. They died among family and by the bosk they revere.



A Gorean can be saddened by loss of one close to them, but rejoice in the Courage shown by the one in their passing.



If a Warrior dies in battle, he should not be pitied for it, but rather pride should be shown, a sense of duty is more meaningful. He died in the performance of his duty to his people. Be saddened by the loss, but be even happier such a Warrior lived to lay down his life for his people.



In my eyes pity is distasteful. It cheapens the matter shrouded by it. The only thing worse than pity for another is self-pity. Shit happens. Deal with it the best you can but do not pity yourself nor expect others to pity your situation.



Gor is natural and wild in a relatively unnatural way. It does not evolve... it is controlled. It is disciplined. There is an attitude among the Wagon People and is part of a song...



"Though I die, yet there will be the bosk, the grass, and sky"
Nomads 263



It does not say "I die, please pity me." Life does go on. It must go on.



"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself.
A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself."
 D.H. Lawrence

[familure{TD}]

Perhaps that is the true nature of the quote.  How do we define what is meant by stating "pity"?  Can we just state it or must we feel it to be considered humiliated or humiliating?

i am the first to admit, i don't always have the best grasp on somethings, so for this, i looked up the word 'pity' from two sources~

from Merriam-Webster.com-
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pity
Main Entry: 1pity
Pronunciation: \ˈpi-tē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural pit·ies
Etymology: Middle English pite, from Anglo-French pité, from Latin pietat-, pietas piety, pity, from pius pious
Date: 13th century

1 a : sympathetic sorrow for one suffering, distressed, or unhappy b : capacity to feel pity
2 : something to be regretted <it's a pity you can't go>

from Dictionary.com-
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pity
pit·y   [pit-ee]  Show IPA noun,pluralpit·ies, verb,pit·ied, pit·y·ing.
–noun
1.
sympathetic or kindly sorrow evoked by the suffering, distress, or misfortune of another, often leading one to give relief or aid or to show mercy: to feel pity for astarving child.
2.
a cause or reason for pity, sorrow, or regret: What a pity you could not go!
–verb (used with object)
3.
to feel pity or compassion for; be sorry for; commiserate with.
–verb (used without object)
4.
to have compassion; feel pity.
—Idiom
5.
have/takepity, to show mercy or compassion.
Use pity in a Sentence
Origin:
1175–1225; ME pite < OF pite, earlier pitet < L pietāt- (s. of pietās) piety

—Related forms
outpity, verb (used with object),-pit·ied, -pit·y·ing.
un·pit·ied, adjective


those are the accepted definitions of the word pity. what is not listed is the disdain the word almost always carries with it when it's spoken. in a cut and dried look at the word, it is and act of compassion, sympathy, regret, to show mercy, it's an emotion that can actually spur someone into action to lend relief to someone in a dire time of need.

you know, it doesn't sound all that bad when you look at it that way, does it?

but for the most part, the word pity seems to be used when you feel sorry for something or someone. and not in a positive fashion either. it's a word that stings when spoken. one that bites deep when aimed at you....it is, for the most part, used solely an insult.


"According to the Gorean way of thinking pity humiliates both he who pities and he who is pitied. According to the Gorean way, one may love but one may not pity."
Outlaw of Gor, p. 31

to look at the word by it's meaning...it is a word that speaks of mercy, compassion, sympathy. Goreans are far more accepting of their feelings. as a matter of fact, they tend to embrace them in a manner akin to the Samuri mentality. or at least that's the way i've always viewed things. so i don't think the quote above alluded to the literal meaning of the word, but the common way it is used..as a degrading insult.

while John Norman never clarifies His specific meaning for the word pity in that statement, i would hope that in this instance, it is used in the negative fashion mentioned above. being that the quote are the words of Tarl...a man from Earth still at the beginning of His long journey to become a Gorean Man. with that in mind, yes...pity is ungorean..undeniably so. it would have the ability to humiliate a Gorean because it is a small minded, petty concept. one at odds with the very fundementals of Gor.

Can, we as Goreans, still be moved by pity?  If pity is not Gorean, does it only exist among the slaves that intertwine the word usage of pity, mercy and forgiveness?

If we are moved by pity, is that humiliating?  If we only looked at the quote as being finite and fundamental then could it be reasoned that all forms of pity is humiliating?  

For example, if a slave begs for pity upon herself for screwing up something versus the potential death or punishment and the Master does nothing, did he just grant that slave pity?  And is that in essence humiliating for him as well?

it seems a play on words, there are two ways to answer these...as well as all of Your questions You have posed on this thread Master.

it depends upon which meaning that is placed upon the word itself when used in any context. are we speaking of pity by the definition in black and white...or more of the accepted use of the word in it's insulting, derogatory way?

i would hope that if pity (ie: sympathy) was felt towards the Widow of a fallen Warior and the Children of that union left behind, which caused You (or anyone) to give of Their time to check in on the Family, perhaps even in a small way help out...maybe giving a pelt from a hunt or repairing a step when it was needed...then it would be in fact a very Gorean thing supporting the Homestone, showing loyalty and honoring a fallen Brothers memory. not something that humiliates, not something that brings shame to both parties involved in this little scenerio but instead is infact something that exemplifies the Gorean culture.

~lure's typist

[Kimba~]

while John Norman never clarifies His specific meaning for the word pity in that statement,…

If it helps, here is the rest of the situation around the quote.

Tarl had befriended a lonely Woodsman, and shared a meal with the man.  But when Tarl says who he is, the Woodsman is supposed to kill Tarl as a wanted Outlaw.  But can’t bring himself to do so.

"Say you are not Tarl Cabot of Ko-ro-ba," he said.
"But I am," I said.
"I ask your favor," said Zosk, his voice thick with emotion. He was pleading.  "Say you are not Tarl Cabot of Ko-ro-ba."
"I am Tarl Cabot of Ko-ro-ba," I repeated firmly.
Zosk lifted his ax.
It seemed light in his massive grip.  I felt it could have felled a small tree with a single blow.  Step by step, he approached me, the ax held over his shoulder with both hands.
At last he stopped before me.  I thought there were tears in his eyes.  I made no move to defend myself.  Somehow I knew Zosk would not strike.  He struggled with himself, his simple wide face twisted in agony, his eyes tortured.
"May the Priest-Kings forgive me!" he cried.
He threw down the ax, which rang on the stones of the road to Ko-ro-ba.  Zosk sank down and sat cross-legged in the road, his gigantic frame shaken with sobs, his massive head buried in his hands, his thick, guttural voice moaning with distress.
At such a time a man may not be spoken to, for according to the Gorean way of thinking pity humiliates both he who pities and he who is pitied.  According to the Gorean way, one may love but one may not pity.
So I moved on.

[razz|n.o.i.r]

"First, pity is an acknowledgement of weakness in the pitied. You are acknowledging that the person is unable to handle the tragedy, that the person lacks the fortitude to bear the suffering. Instead, one should show respect to such a person if they are strong enough to handle the matter. Second, pity is an acknowledgement of weakness in the pitier as well. The pitier places himself in the same situation as the pitied, acknowledging that he too could be weak in such a situation"

On reading the page that Raz has linked within his post. It provoked a thought process within me. If one does seek pity. Isn't that also seeking some sort of justification in their actions, when what they have done is wrong? If the pity being sought for. Was from something that the person was within full control over to begin with. If pity was given in such a situation. Wouldn't that simply be instantly justifying the persons actions in their own mind? If so, then how can the person learn from their actions and grow as an individual in the end?

Also seeking/giving pity. Would that not in its own way be considered a weakness in one? Not seeking/giving pity, that would be considered a deep underlaying strength wouldn't it?

My own view on showing compassion or mercy to another in a difficult situation outside of their control. There are many ways to do such, without pitying the person. There are many people who would view pity, as a slap in the face.

-goes with plenty to think about-..My apologies as this is a half completed thought from me.

[ndndancer]

If it helps, here is the rest of the situation around the quote.

Tarl had befriended a lonely Woodsman, and shared a meal with the man.  But when Tarl says who he is, the Woodsman is supposed to kill Tarl as a wanted Outlaw.  But can’t bring himself to do so.

"Say you are not Tarl Cabot of Ko-ro-ba," he said.
"But I am," I said.
"I ask your favor," said Zosk, his voice thick with emotion. He was pleading.  "Say you are not Tarl Cabot of Ko-ro-ba."
"I am Tarl Cabot of Ko-ro-ba," I repeated firmly.
Zosk lifted his ax.
It seemed light in his massive grip.  I felt it could have felled a small tree with a single blow.  Step by step, he approached me, the ax held over his shoulder with both hands.
At last he stopped before me.  I thought there were tears in his eyes.  I made no move to defend myself.  Somehow I knew Zosk would not strike.  He struggled with himself, his simple wide face twisted in agony, his eyes tortured.
"May the Priest-Kings forgive me!" he cried.
He threw down the ax, which rang on the stones of the road to Ko-ro-ba.  Zosk sank down and sat cross-legged in the road, his gigantic frame shaken with sobs, his massive head buried in his hands, his thick, guttural voice moaning with distress.
At such a time a man may not be spoken to, for according to the Gorean way of thinking pity humiliates both he who pities and he who is pitied.  According to the Gorean way, one may love but one may not pity.
So I moved on.

i've spent a lot of years thinking and discussing this with the Men of the Warrior Societies and want to approach this topic from that perspective since Gor also has that strong Warrior ethos.

at one time, i carried a Warrior Woman's name, no longer.  As part of the training we had these huge discussions about similar topics.  One thing that struck me is that universally pity is seen as one of those emotions that's seen as destructive and not honorable.  Mercy is not destructive and is honorable.  But, pity is seen as being one of those "less then human" emotions that steal from the spirit of the pitier and the pitiful.  If i look upon someone with pity, it's seen as me looking at them as beneath me, there's a feeling of superiority that makes pity different then mercy, sympathy, or empathy.  As a result, instead of exhibiting mercy, i look down on them and may even take revenge or hurt rather then help as pity can drive people to negative actions.  Whereas mercy is free of that superiority and if i choose to help, it's because of truly merciful feelings rather then feeling pity.

For the other person, they know if you're looking at them with pity, mercy tinged with superiority if you will, rather then mercy.  It's easy to discern the difference.  So, as the person being pitied, i feel shame and humiliation, and anger soon follows.  i may react badly (and i have and would) to the pity or help being offered.  Pity diminishes me as a human being, whereas mercy unites and bonds me with the merciful in our human-ness. 

Pity, for a Warrior, makes you less then human.  Those negative kinds of feelings always steals from your own spirit and brings on less then honorable actions. 

Now, switching from what I know of my culture and trying to relate it to Gor.  I've read Nietzsche as well as a few other philosophers in my search for understanding and believe Master Luther's discussion left out some of the more salient points Nietzche was trying to make in his various writings.  I found this on Wiki, William Blake explains further what Nietzsche was trying to say:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not to be confused with Empathy, Sympathy, or Compassion.
Pity by William Blake

Pity evokes a tender or sometimes slightly contemptuous sorrow or empathy for people, a person, or an animal in misery, pain, or distress. In regard to humans, a protective or quasi-paternal feeling of pity may be felt towards marginalized or impoverished people such as homeless families; orphans; people with disabilities or terminal illness, and victims of rape and torture. People who have previously experienced the pain or misfortune in question may feel greater pity. Because pity will often result in the pitier aiding the pitied, some people equate pity with sympathy and assume, therefore, that pity is naturally a positive thing. However, the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche believed that pity causes an otherwise normal person to feel his or her own suffering in an inappropriately intense, alienated way. "Pity makes suffering contagious,"[1] he says in The Antichrist, meaning that it is important for the pitier not to allow him/herself to feel superior to the pitied, lest such a power imbalance result in the pitied retaliating against the help being offered.

That's exactly what pity feels like, slightly contemptuous, paternalistic..... Even though i may relate to the experience of the pitied, i feel it in a way that alienates me.  I believe it may be because i had been in a similar situation, but, i overcame the situation and thus the pitiful being before me should "suck it up".  It makes me feel superior to them and alienated from their suffering in a negative way.

Going on to explain the consequences of pity on the pitied:

Nietzsche pointed out that since all people to some degree value self-esteem  and self-worth, pity can negatively affect any situation. Additionally, pity may actually be psychologically harmful to the pitied: Self-pity and depression can sometimes be the result of the power imbalance fostered by pity, sometimes with extremely negative psychological and psycho-social consequences for the pitied party.

I think this is where the pitied can feel the shame and humiliation of being the object of pity.  Again, it affects them negatively.

John Norman seems to have been a great fan of Nietzsche and think part of it may be that Gor was written as sort of a "period" piece with things borrowed from certain civilizations during a certain timeframe.  Pity at one point in history didn't have the negative connotation it does now.  It evolved through history and the meaning refined by the influences of the changes in religious beliefs.  From Wiki again:

In Ancient Greece, Aristotle argued (Rhetoric 2. that in before a person can feel pity for another human, the person must first have experienced suffering of a similar type, and the person must be somewhat distanced or removed from the sufferer. [2]  In Aristotle described pity in his Rhetoric: "Let pity, then, be a kind of pain in the case of an apparent destructive or painful harm of one not deserving to encounter it, which one might expect oneself, or one of one's own, to suffer, and this when it seems near".[2]  Aristotle also pointed out that "people pity their acquaintances, provided that they are not exceedingly close in kinship; for concerning these they are disposed as they are concerning themselves....For what is terrible is different from what is pitiable, and is expulsive of pity".[2]  Thus, from Aristotle's perspective, in order to feel pity, a person must believe that the person who is suffering does not deserve their fate.[2]  The concept of pity was part of the Greek literary traditions of tragedy and epic.

The religious concept of pity changed after the introduction of Christianity; while Greek and Roman gods were not believed to feel pity (since they were thought to be invulnerable), the Christian religion proposed a deity which felt pity for humans. By the nineteenth century, two different kinds of pity had come to be distinguished, which we might call "benevolent pity" and "contemptuous pity" (see Kimball). David Hume observed that pity which has in it a strong mixture of good-will, is nearly allied to contempt, which is a species of dislike, with a mixture of pride. It is an emotion that almost always results from an encounter with a real or perceived unfortunate, injured, or pathetic creature. A person experiencing pity will experience a combination of intense sorrow and mercy for the person or creature, often giving the pitied some kind of aid, physical help, and/or financial assistance. Although pity may be confused with compassion, empathy, commiseration, condolence or sympathy, pity is different from all of these.

I believe Gor, Nietzsche and Norman's views of pity would be more in line with the Warrior and Caste structure of Gor.  It seems to have been universal among the various cultures of Gor.  I may be wrong, but I don't remember anywhere in the 27 books where pity is seen or used in a positive way.  If it was shown, it's shown with a contemptuous paternalism, designed to invoke shame or humiliate the pitied.

Great discussion and thank you for allowing me to participate.