Is Gor mainstream or "adult" literature?

[Buddha]

In searching for various alternative payment vehicles for webmaze there is a consistent theme of restricting "adult" material from using the payment service. In pondering where webmaze fits in, it occurs to me that the full series of Gor books is cataloged in the "fantasy and science fiction" section of the bookstores. There is no age requirement to buy the books. Any teenager can wander into Barnes and Noble and buy whatever they desire. The books are not in a back room hidden behind a curtain; no huge "We ID" signs in the window. So why should the online version of Gor be treated any differently. Don't misunderstand my point here. I am not intending, nor would I want, underage chatters in the Gor section. But on the other hand, isn't it a bit extreme to consider Gor as "adult"?

Similar comments could be made of vampire roleplay and the Anne Rice books.

What are your thoughts?

[Amber]

I think, despite the fact that there is no restriction on the books per se, that these are definitely adult themes, just as if these were movies (I know Gor has been made into movies before, but I have been told they suck), most of these situations would be rated R.  I have even come across White Wolf books that are under Black Dog instead of White Wolf, and though there are no age restrictions in order to buy them, they are a mature theme, which  means the contents are on the rather dark side.

However, I believe the adult theme comes from the situations that will arise in Gor and Vamp.  Such as open sexual scening, violence, death, blood shed, the muchly graphic way we all tend to kill people when it is an NPC.

I'm probably rambling, and not making any sense, I am tired.

[Salem]

It really depends on who you talk to. There are quite a few people out there who view the theme as mysogynistic, and it is a fair enough thought, though those of us who have read and enjoy the stories know there is more to it than that.

Personally, aside from the slavery part, though such is something that could be encountered within, I always thought of the books as something no different than I would encounter at the dinner table playing Dungeons & Dragons. Swordplay, bad guys, the heroes, a villainous plot to stop, getting the girl, happy ending. I don't recall any specific details as to sex in the books I have read, if there is in others I have not than I could understand the adult label, but if there is not I would not view them as such.

They are certainly not "mainstream" material in a sense, but honestly, it's pretty tame compared to alot of material published these days.

[Fishy!]

So far of the books that I've read I would say that its maybe pg-13 there are sexual undertones but there hasent been any lewd sexual acts in the books there has been nudity but nothing graphic... but just like comic books they are done so in a tasteful manner so that its really up to the readers imagination how graphic it really is.

I wouldn't suggest the books for anyone under the age of 16 prolly.... so maybe amber saying rated r matches... but since the online gor community focuses more so on the battles, spars, and the very sexy slaves... it makes sence that the chat is adults only....

Its kinda like sex... they have sex ed in high school but its illegial to have sex untill you're of age...

[RAGNAR]

Though my vote may not count so much as a member of Staff, in good conscience I do feel I need to speak up.

The books themselves are not what we consider as adult material persay. They tell a story from a sci-fi point of view.

However, the books were never written nor designed to be played out in role play... to actually be accepted as a philosophy for living... nor as an actual guide to relationships. In role play we have taken this well beyond the overall intent of the published works. The books are a sort of guide. What we have done is taken these guides and developed an entire world based upon these works and have reached the point where we "live" Gor through the role play.

I need not split hairs between real time Goreans, and those who simply enjoy the role play as well as all the other aspects and mindsets at this time. It has no actual bearing on this specific topic.

However, in using the books as a guide for living in the role play venue, it tends to go from just sci-fi in the broad storyline sense to a highly detailed, graphic, HTML world of sexual conduct, intimacy, detailed descriptions of both body and situation, and at times extremely violent and in some cases disturbing detailed conduct involving combat, torture, and executions.

Simply stated, in this venue we tend to pick up in graphic detail where the books leave off. It does take a level of maturity to maintain the proper balance. Some handle it quite well... some do not.

Yet to change the way Gor is performed in this venue to remove these aspects which tend to place it in the adult oriented category... also removes the aspects which make it Gor.

It is, after all, a male dominated society involving a deeper slavery than BDSM by description, in a beautiful yet deadly world where disputes are often settled with violence, strangers are killed for no other base reason than they are not known to the locals, torture is taken to a professional status as highly skilled and detailed as Physicians and the Gorean healthcare system.

It really is one thing to read the storyline in books.... and another to "live" the detailed existence of that storyline on a day to day basis. It was created as a storyline..... we have, through this venue... made it a way of life.

Naturally there are more aspects to be considered, but those are not pertinent to this specific discussion.

[Raziel]

First Off…Happy New Year.

I was only going to make this KISS simple but it is early to me after only about 4 hours of sleep and well, I tend to overthink things and become long winded.  Hopefully, my point is indeed made.

Gor is catalogued in the Sci-Fi Fantasy Section in most book stores, but then again, the mind is not.  Each person is unique and interprets the images presented to them by words as they see fit according to their age, gender, and upbringing and education level.  I’m not speaking education level per say according to school, but education level according to our own understanding of things.  Men will read the book and focus on things that appeal to them, like the fight scenes or the images of naked women.  Women will read the book and see things from a relatively emotional side and be entranced with the sensual aspect of description and these will make for an enhanced image in their perspective minds.  A 16 year old man will read and see a fantasy world based around a hero and naked women wanting to love the hero or belong to him.  A BDSM lifestyler may read the book and see something more in the relationship of the Master and slave in Gor. 

Each person, based upon each background, will read and gain something different.  In that difference is where we find the “Adult Theme” vs. the “Non-Adult Theme”.  Like minded individual, older and more mature, understanding the darker undertones and suggestive inclinations of Norman will tend to agree to certain common aspects and see things as we do online.  Hence, all the forums and opinions about what Gor is and the multitude of sites that holds the same rooms.  “We are pure Gor”, “We are the real Gor”, “Our home is true Gor based on the books”.  The problems with those examples of statements are interpretation and inconsistencies within the books themselves. 

So we still come across the same question, “Is Gor Adult or Mainstream literature?” without a definitive answer.  Gor is the kind of literature that indulges all who read it and provides a world that we understand to be fictional, fantastic and suggestive past the norms of today’s society.  Gor provides a society that would be abhorred by today’s accepted standards if practiced in public because today’s society is afraid to indulge and/or explore the possibilities of our own devious and perverted nature.  It becomes impractical, disgusting, and degrading to the advancements of “civilized nations” accordingly by both right and left wing proponents.  And this is because of history as well as religion, rules and regulations, laws of justice, and humanity’s tolerance to mistreatment.  And yet, in today’s modern world, violence runs amuck and spread faster through the exposure of the internet to show “civilized nations” removing the head of a soldier on camera, justices systems still providing Old Testament eye for an eye justice and subjecting women to veiling themselves in public.  Porn to watch and or practice is grounds for imprisonment or banishment, and in some places, a harem of women for your desire or multiple wives may be common practice. 

Our own modern civilized society’s hypocrisy seems to know no bounds yet, we could condemn others for simply thinking these types of thoughts.  Norman had the right idea in his creation of the series by way of mocking the one he lived in.  He took what is common in society and twisted, and simplified, and yet brought to light our own shortcomings as well as our own ignorance and hypocrisy.  Again, each person is different, each person interprets what they see or feel or read differently.  This could be a detailed account into various philosophies of all societies, merged into one series.  It could also include extrapolated ideas and what if scenarios, much like a science experiment with a control group and a test group.  Each person can give any number of reasons or interpretations for the books as to what they are or where to categorize them can be given.  Whether Gor is adult or mainstream is based upon the whole point of this response…

Perception.

[LLL]

As the parent of a teen that was under adult supervision when she first appeared on Gor, I can tell you that the books may not be for adults only however in the translation to a role play medium, the differences are as vast as the differences in a lake and the ocean.  There are tidbits mentioned in the book about sexual occurrences, however, there are huge role plays around slavery and Ownership that go way beyond what even J Norman would have envisioned in print.  I'm sure his descriptions were no where near as graphic as the presentation in on-line Gor.  Unlike the payment system you are considering (since I am assuming that is the one that was mentioned during our discussion last week) which would consider Gor to be a strictly role play adult realm.  It's adult because of it's themes, and you're treading on dangerous ground by saying it is not, opening the site up to the liability of under agers coming to the site.  There is no way that Gor is pg in it's role play environs unless you limit the role play and avatars to strictly keeping it all covered and in pm mode and I seriously just do not see that happening.  To put it plainly, Gor on-line is much more advanced than the Gor of the novels and On-line Gor is not Barnes and Noble.  But then again, that's just My humble opinion.

[Buddha]

In response to questions about the reasons for my initial post, I have no desire to mix underage chatters into webmaze.

[Ayelen]

Buddha,

As an FYI, there are some bookstore chains that do catalogue the Gor series as mild erotica. I have come across this when searching for other rare books I'm interested in.  I've even taken say, a Stephen King novel and opened the page to a blatant sexual scene and pointed out to the manager that their cataloguing of books is not particularly accurate.

But to your question, I've noticed that certain website blockers, such as WebSense, does block Webmaze as an adult-oriented site, while another site, PureGor is not. At first, I thought perhaps it's because of the other rooms that Webmaze has, such as the BDSM and picture rooms, and not particularly focusing on the subject of Gor itself, but then ... WebSense blocked, of all things, BlackRock Funds as adult oriented.

When I contacted WebSense, they were not apologetic of the difficulties, but explained away how there was one word that was deemed offensive by the majority. 

Offensive? Well, the stock market is in a bit of a bind, but I wouldn't call it, or the terminology associated with investments, offensive...

[Kimba~]

When the first seven books came out, they were published by Bantam, and were very mainstream.  But when JN switched to DAW, and was his editor, the books got much more explicit.  For instance I was surprised by a scene in Explorers that details a kajira giving oral sex.  It was more explicit that I had remembered the middle books to be.

But society changed.  Under Reagan, the Ed Meese Report clearly labeled anything with forced sex, or bondage, as pornography (even if the women in the bondage photos were willing participants).  When the Gor books were republished in the 90's, they had introductions written by hardcore BDSM people and were sold in back rooms and adult bookstores.

Today, I think the pendulum has swung farther yet.  While we do see BDSM themes depicted, like on Law and Order SVU, they are depicted so as not to show participants favorably.

I don't think that there is any doubt that the Gor books are adult material.  And the way we roleplay is more adult yet.  And the way I roleplay....