Death in online Gor

[Rhodynion of Ar]

It is not my habit to post to these boards outside the Forest Event. But even though it ended a few months ago, one issue that was addressed kept lingering in the back of my mind, and now that my r/t allows for a little more time, I figured I'd return to it and share my thoughts on it.

(OOC Comments;  That was the first time I participated in killing another character, and I certainly had mixed feelings.  There was some triumph, but also a sense of guilt.  Is that how it feels to others?

My question is: was it the act of killing that bothered you, or the death of the other character, or both?

My own thoughts on these subjects vary, depending on the circumstances. As for the act of killing – I wouldn't seek to kill someone who is defenseless, such as a captive – but if circumstances would dictate such and alternatives were not feasible, then I could find myself in a situation where such would be necessary. For example, a captive who would seek to escape and in doing so would endanger my own safety, could well end up dead.
And in combat – well, it just happens. I once killed a Panther during an earlier edition of this event, a few years ago, and while that was not something I intended to do, it just happened during the course of the fight. It was regretful, but it also made sense in a way, and I didn't feel bad about it.

As for the death of the character – that's a different story. I have once lost my "regular" Gorean character, and that has been a very difficult experience for me, separating me from years of history and at some level even severing bonds that had been built over those years. It took me more than half a year to even contemplate a return.
But such an emotional attachment does absolutely not exist for a temporary character like Rhodynion. I created him for the first event, and the only reason I keep bringing him back is that for various reasons, he so far got away with his life and freedom, so that there was no need for me to ever create a new TRC. If he meets his end one way or another, I'll just return as someone else.

All in all, it's not my intent to kill anyone, but it may happen in the course of roleplay, and because I just don't think it's such a big deal if it's a TRC, it's more likely to happen during events. But I suppose that's not the same for everyone...... in earlier years I got the impression that some participants in the Forest Event were quite reluctant to consider death as an option even if it would have been a realistic outcome. So I would be interested to hear some opinions on the subject, if anyone wants to share them.

[Medi]

Hi, thank you for posting this, Rhodynion.  I still think back on the Forest Event, it was a real learning experience for me, a real watershed moment, and I still get insights when I reflect on what happened.

Let me try to answer your questions.

The killing occurred during a fair fight, it was two Panthers against one Male, and he was very experienced, and well armed.  I knew that my TRC could be killed in the encounter, but entered the fray to support my Sister.  In fact, 'Medi' was badly injured during the battle, she took a thrown axe to her chest, and her sternum was cracked.  (I was able to persuade the Judges that I had been hit with the blunt side of the axe...if he had been carrying a double bitted axe, I would have died, too, despite the fact that I hit him in his chest with my arrow). 

The triumph was over having survived, and to have fought well.  The FE was my first experience with fighting, I had just joined WM in February, 2009, and so I was still new to r/p. 

The guilt was over the act of killing, and the realization that I had removed a character from the v/t Universe, a unique character who will never be with us again. 

I see all of the characters here as 'real', maybe it is just me, but that is why I come in so often to r/p.  I knew the typist behind the TRC I killed, and saw him as a friend, and still do.  He had made a very interesting TRC, and had r/p'd him for about a week before the battle.  Like all good characters, he was complex, and had a very likable side, even though he did torment us and attack us without provocation.  (He was incredibly accurate with rocks, and once drove away my Heart Sister and I when we got too close to where he was hiding...*smiles*).  I had tried to keep myself from getting close to my TRC, and really didn't expect to survive the FE.  But, I found myself getting close to 'Medi', and also saw the others around me a 'real'.  My first ever r/p character had been killed a few months earlier, and I was in a vulnerable state of mind.  I think that I was revisiting the devastation that I had felt when the character that I loved and cared for was removed from the v/t Universe, and thought that the typist behind the one I killed was going through the same emotions.  He actually comforted me, later, as did others, and I saw that a TRC is totally different from a character that one r/p's. 

I did go on, and did kill another during the FE, and felt the same emotions.  It wasn't in a fair fight, but I felt that I needed to do what I did in the context of the r/p, and did speak with the typist, afterwards.  I have met him since, and hope to r/p with him, without the need to fight.  (*smiles*)  And, after the FE, I went back to my old character, but then came back and brought 'Medi' alive again, and am r/p'ing her.  I wonder how often it is that a TRC turns into a permanent character?

What I learned from all of this, I think, is to realize that there is always a real person on the other side of the screen, and that He/She has invested a lot of energy, training, and love into His/Her character.  I try to keep that in mind, and to keep the separation between v/t and r/t in mind.  I don't expect to kill again, 'Medi' is out to capture, not kill, although I probably will create a new TRC for next years FE.  I can foresee situations where Medi might have to fight again, and risk her life, and if I lose her I will mourn, but I will create a new character and move on, wiser for the experience.  One thing that I will never do, however, is kill a captive or a slave.  I have experienced being killed against my wishes, while completely helpless, and would never want to inflict such a horrible experience on anyone else.  It affected my r/t life...and v/t should uplift us...it should allow us to express and experience other aspects of our personalities...it should not pull us down and hurt those that love us in r/t.

I will think more of this, Rhodynion...again, thank you for posting this.

Medi

[Kimba~]

Kimba regretted killing somebody once.  I don't remember the details though.

As the typist, I feel bad if Kimba kills somebody who cares that they are dead, because I know it hurts the typist.  But Kimba kills like she drinks water.

She kills like she used to serve paga and fur strangers.  C'est la vie, c'est le Gor.  Those who rule, those who serve.  Those who live, those who die.

[Rhodynion of Ar]

It took me quite a bit longer to return to this than I had anticipated. Thank you both for your answers.

You worded the dilemma very well, Medi. But the flip side of the coin is...... if you would avoid killing someone out of concern for the typist, wouldn't that remove an element from Gor that makes it more real? If the death of our Gorean character causes grief and distress in r/t, then doesn't that demonstrate that Gor means something for us? And if we try to shield others from that emotion by avoiding to kill, will Gor not lose some of its depth and meaning?
I don't advocate random killing sprees – far from that, I believe that those who come to Gor in order to fight and kill as many as they can show a contempt for life and also for their own personality. But on the other hand, I believe that the threat of being killed can only be truly felt when it's as real as possible. And I think that if a situation evolves where the death of another character follows the flow of events, it should not be avoided at all costs. The word "evolves" is key – I believe that it's very wrong to enter a room with the intent to kill someone (unless maybe, for Assassins). But say that and opponent has been offered ample opportunity to avoid deadly consequences, then I believe it should be carried through, or what happens will lose its credibility. For example, you say that Medi is out to capture and not kill, and I think that's a good line of thought. But suppose one of your intended captives will not yield, would you not eventually kill him or her?
I would also, in the end, kill a captive or a slave. Not wantonly, but they are in a situation where certain behavior is expected and acceptable whereas other is not, and if they fail to comply after fair warning is given and punitive measures have been carried out, then in the end, the final consequence should not be avoided. And if death is meaningful to them, they will choose life.

With a TRC, during an Event, Gor is all a little less serious to me, and I tend to relax on the line of thought depicted above. I feel more remote from a TRC than from my regular persona, and that impacts my behavior, also towards others. I more or less assume that this also holds true for the other participants, but I may be wrong there, and your post certainly sheds some light on that matter (I think that a few years ago, I made a somewhat similar inquiry on these boards, but it didn't really provide me with the answers I was seeking).
In each case, life basically ends for my TRC at the end of the Event anyway, so the implications of death are by far not as big as on "real" Gor. I once even participated in an Event (not on this site) where I played a tarsk, and of course I was hunted down quickly and roasted over a big fire, much to everybody's enjoyment.
Events and TRC's are simply a different venue for me, and from that perspective, I think it would indeed be best if you would create a new TRC for next year's event instead of entering as Medi.

[Medi]

Thank you for your response, Rhodynion, I have read it several times, and given it a lot of thought.

It is kind of funny, but my attitude towards death on Gor has changed since my original post at the FE.  It probably has to do with the growth of my Gorean soul, and with creating a new character after the FE.  I have also been reading similar threads at other Boards, and am continuing reading the JN Novels.  My first 6 months on Gor was as a kajira, and kajirae don't take lives, and generally are sheltered from conflict.  (smiles)  I remember running for the cages, or hiding under the nearest wagon when conflict arose.  Later, I r/p'd a FW, and it was also a very sheltered experience.  There was a huge battle, once, but I stayed back, and tended to the wounded, and later had the melancholy duty of preparing the dead, on both sides, for a proper funeral pyre.  Either way, I never fought, and never took a life.

I agree with you, Rhodynion, that death has to be part of 'life' here on Gor.  After all, it is part of what we have to deal with in r/t.  Gor is not a RPG where you can back up, and reload, and address the challenge again, just as you can't do so in r/t.  If you get injured in an accident in r/t...you have to live with it...and death will ultimately claim us all in r/t.  Maybe my personal reaction to the death of my character really showed me what the Gorean community means to me...I was devastated, and horribly depressed for months after she was killed.  If the community didn't mean anything to me, I would have just thought...'what a yutze', and left and gone onto other endeavors.  I have played a lot of RPG games, programmed ones, not on-line ones, and, as those go, my character has been 'killed' many times during the course of the game.  Often, I have laughed at the mistake I made, or the silly way that the programmer had set a trap.  (I loved Rosella).  Here, on Gor, a death is totally different, the character is gone...and everyone, at every site, agrees that no-one gets a 'do-over'.

That said, I say that death should not be taken casually, just as it isn't in r/t.  I agree that when characters decide to fight, that death should be an option.  We fight with primitive weapons that cause horrendous injuries, and one should not take fighting lightly.  Medi, when she fights in the future, will always keep that in mind.  I agree that it is possible that killing a helpless captive or girl would be necessary, if he or she was endangering others. 

I still don't agree that killing a helpless girl is warranted...just sell her...maybe she will do better with a new owner.  Her failure to please probably reflects the mismatch between her and her  Master.  In the JN Novels I have read so far, girls weren't casually killed...actually I have not read of one being killed, yet.  There are anecdotes, like in 'Priest Kings', where they refer to a girl being pushed through a force field and being destroyed, but I haven't read yet of a detailed description of a girl being killed.

I will definitely create a new character for the next FE, a TRC.  I will make her fun to r/p, and if she gets killed, it will be with some skill, and a lot of humor.  The FE seems to be a chance for women to get back at the men, and I will definitely take the opportunity.  You guys do rule on Gor, but we Panthers kicked the stuffing out of you men at the 2010 FE...(grins).  We don't play fair...

Thank you for speaking with me, it has caused me to think, and to grow.  Be well.

[Rhodynion of Ar]

Thanks again for your insights on this, Medi, I enjoy reading them. It's remarkable how much your feelings at the death of your earlier character parallel my own experience when that happened to me.

On the killing of captives and slaves: rest assured that it's only a final resort to me. I would indeed not kill a girl for failing to meet my expectations – that would indeed be uncalled for and not justifiable from either a moral or an economic perspective. Selling her would indeed be a better solution, like you said.
But, on the other hand, how to deal with someone who is openly defiant, or continually resistant to the status quo, and keeps on challenging one's authority? Gor is not a consensual environment, the books describe multiple scenarios to coerce someone into slavery and to punish the reluctant ones, and some online Goreans are quite creative in that respect as well. Yet, precisely because it's an online environment, a slave or captive can basically resist forever, far beyond what would probably happen if it were real. If threatening to kill a captive won't work, then in the end, I think the threat should not be a vain one.

In reality – or I should say, in Gorean "reality", I have never personally killed anyone. I've been somewhat responsible for one death, but that was typically a case where someone tried to manipulate my in-character actions through PM's, and that won't work very well with me, so the events unfolded as directed by the ensuing roleplay. As Rhodynion, on the other hand, I have killed during the Forest Event, and I probably would do so again. That's another level of detachment towards a TRC: I'm inclined to behave in a different manner than I normally would, it's mostly a character that I play as opposed to a persona that represents me in "real" Gor.

I wish you well, and maybe we'll meet at the FE, one way or another. I have some thoughts on the Event itself too, but that's another matter entirely, and not too relevant for now.

[Medi]

I have thought hard on your last post, and certainly agree with what you have said.  I also have read some posts at PoD that contained scripts of slave killings.  I had to totally agree with one, the girl r/p'd that she had burned down the wagon camp and then escaped on a kaiila.  From my experience with MTC that was totally unrealistic r/p.  A girl might, and I say, "might", be able to toss a torch on a wagon, but it would be quickly put out and there is no way in hell that she would be able to get away.  There are always people and Askari's around.  She certainly did deserve to be killed and left for the sleen.  If she was unhappy at the site she should have asked to shelve her character, or asked to be sold, I would also say that doing an act like that is asking to be killed, since she was r/p'ing killing a whole community.

I, also, witnessed a killing of a slave, and had to agree.  She was a person who was openly disruptive, and I had seen everyone, from the Ubar down to the lowest girl, try to get her to r/p in a more orderly fashion.  She had been treated with kindness, personal mentoring, and horrible punishments.  But, she kept disrupting the r/p with OOC comments, and being difficult in r/p, so after several months she was killed, because she exasperated everyone.  I certainly wasn't privy to pm's or other discussion, but am certain that she had been warned, multiple times, that continuing such behavior would get her killed.  I do believe that it is only right to warn a girl, several times, that whatever she is doing will get her killed, especially with one who is new to Gor and r/p.  Death really is permanent, and if unexpected it can really hurt the typist.

I do plan on making a new character for the next FE...it will probably be totally different from Medi, and I look forward to having fun stalking and capturing as many men as I can...*S*

I hope to see you at the FE, and mayhaps we can visit at other places.  The "Coffee Shop" here at WM is open to all for meeting and discussions.