A brush with death in RT makes me ponder Gor

[Kimba~]

In RT, me and my girlfriend watched two teenagers drown yesterday.  We might have saved them, or we might have died trying.  We decided not to help.  I think our different reactions to it: hers a traditional Earthbound and mundane view of it, mine (I think) more Gorean – say something about what it is to be Gorean.

Or, I could be way off base.  So I post to see what others think.

It was over in two minutes.  There was no discussion.  I saw what was happening, did some mental math, and quickly decided not to act, except to stop my girlfriend if she tried to act.  She did pretty much the same thing.

Now, she is agonized with recriminations.  She should have done something; she might have saved them.  I have no recriminations: We did the right thing.  Period.

She said, flat out, “This is the saddest day of my life.”  To actually see people die, to see the dead bodies dragged out of the water later – seeing it made it worse, for her, than other deaths.  In all fairness, both her parents and all her kids are still alive, so she doesn’t, maybe, know what it is to have somebody really close to you die.  And she sure doesn’t know what it is like to have your character die.

Before somebody goes on a rampage about “How can you compare death of a Gorean character to RT death?” – I need to say that is pure science.  All mourning is mourning your own death.  You mourn because death reminds you of your own mortality.  So, death of your own character, can be, for some; as close to your own death as an incident can take you.

But to me, it was reckless kids throwing dice and rolling snake-eyes.  So sad, too bad.   It’s simple evolution.  A certain segment of the population is too stupid to live long enough to reproduce, thus the whole population slowly grows smarter.  It’s not even close to as tragic as a soldier getting blown up by an IED, or innocent kids taking collateral damage from mortar fire, or somebody’s family getting wiped out by a drunk driver.

The real big difference is that she thinks it was tragic that one boy died trying to help the other.  I feel honored to have witnessed such an act.

On Gor, I have made Leader decisions to let characters die.  No it’s not the same, but it wasn’t that different either.  I don’t second-guess those, I’m not second-guessing this one.

On Gor, there is a lot of death, but it only matters when it’s somebody you know.  No, it’s not the same, but it’s not that different either.

[RAGNAR]

Survival... selfpreservation, is the most natural and most difficult mechanism a person has to overcome. If his friend, healthy and as fit as the initial victim was unable to save a life, could you have saved both of them? Even one of them? No offense, but age, size, fitness, all have a bearing on the situation. You were prepared to save your partner, and she you, should the need have come up.

Was the decisions to not place your lives in peril the correct choice? That is for you alone to say, but I will offer this... you are alive to ponder the matter. The other two are not. That is a literal "Can you live with your decision" dilemma.

Were I in their situation, it would be nice if someone helped. Would I expect it from strangers? No. I got myself into the situation, I should be able to get myself out of it. Were it a friend or family member... I would try without hesitation.

You were not dutybound to risk your life. You were not compelled by others to risk your life. You certainly are not expected to add your life nor the life of your partner to the death toll.

Sometimes, there is nothing you can do. Nothing you can say. It falls under the heading of "Shit happens" and there is nothing to be done. You can dwell on the matter for the rest of your life or you can accept that what happened is done with and move on.

I see no fault with your decision.
I do see potential problems if your partner cannot come to terms with what happened.

Whats done is done and nothing anyone does now can change it.

There is no right or wrong for you in this matter.

Perhaps experiences in my own life have made me callous.

Been there, done that, got the memories restless sleep at times to prove it.

[Medi]

Hi True...*hug*

This morning, when I got into the office, I looked up the event, since you had discussed it with me last night.

There is nothing that you or Ann could have done, the water was very cold, and they were 50 yards offshore and the water was 12 feet deep.  The accounts also said that the two boys were climbing over each other, trying to stay afloat at the end, which is typical panicked drowning behavior.  Had you and Ann tried to save them, they probably would have pulled you down with them.  Also, the area had been posted 'No Swimming'...which does say something.  I learned, as a lifeguard, to never approach a drowning person without a flotation device...getting a person in that state of mind to roll over on his back and try to float is a myth.  And, when a place is posted as 'No Swimming'...that is what it means.

I think that the Gorean philosophy honors the one who tried to save the other, and he showed a bravery that should be honored.  I also think that the Gorean philosophy sees that we will all pass on, and the grass will continue to grow.

Seeing death, first hand, does change one.  My son came back from Iraq a changed person...and...I must say...a better person.  Before, he had been sheltered, and drifting as so many young people do, afterwards, he was more focused, and realistic.  Once one has seen death first hand, especially if it is violent, or unexpected...ones view of the World changes.  I pray that Ann will see and grow from the experience, and learn to love life much more, and cherish what a wonderful friend she has in you.

I think that you do have a point about the effect that a "Gorean Death" has on r/t.  Having experienced it, also, after three days of torture, I am still trying to recover.  It did change me, and maybe not for the better.  My r/t did suffer, badly, and I don't enjoy my music as much, and at times cry a lot.  But, that is "Gor"...at times I wonder why I stay.

[Kimba~]

The three things that are still eating me are:

Nobody there could have saved them.  No one person.  But we ALL could have saved them.  If the best swimmers went out and the strongest men went in neck deep to help pull people in.  Maybe if we got them out sooner instead of waiting for the fire department, they could have been revived.

They were high school seniors, athletes.  On half-days because they had passed all their classes and only needed half a year's worth of credits.  Hispanic.  Their friends on shore were speaking Spanish.  It was a school day during school hours.  We thought they were probably illegals who didn't get any day-work that day.  I'm not saying it would have made a difference, but maybe it did.

If they were girls, they probably would have got saved.

[RAGNAR]

Death does not recognise gender. It visits us all in its own time.

[Mercilayne]

This poses a very difficult question for me..   I work in the Emergency Medical Services (EMS).  I drive one of the ambulances that people see going and coming every day.  I put myself in danger, in difficult situations everyday..  Because it is my job and I enjoy it.  I might complain and grumble...but I wouldn't do it if I didn't like it. 

Am I saying that you should have done something?  oh HELL NO.  Am I saying that your girlfriend should have done something?  Again, oh HELL NO.  I would never, ever recommend that someone endanger themselves to save someone else....Unless you have the training for it.  And even then, sometimes...Training doesn't mean shit.  It's over with too quickly for that training to even kick in.  Even when the training does, sometimes it is just their time to die.  And Yes I believe that..  I am a very strong believer in the fact that if it is your time to die, then no matter who is around..You will die. 

In our training the first thing we are told and it is drilled into our heads everyday afterwards..  First..Protect yourself..   Second..Protect your partner..  Third..Protect the patient.  Is that coldhearted?  In a way yes..  But we're taught, if we get hurt or our partner gets hurt then we become the patients and our original patient doesn't get the help they need, they have to wait longer til help for all of us come.  I've found it's a good rule to live by in life too.  If I get killed, who is going to look after my daughter?  If I get myself killed, how can I look after her?  You have to think about things like that. 

I think it is very sad that one person died trying to save another..  and that their memory should be honored for it.  And I see that you, nor your girlfriend did anything wrong.  You did the right thing, you protected yourselves and kept yourselves from being casualties that possibly died or made matters worse.  It is a very hard thing knowing that you "Could have" done something and it "Might have" helped..  But you are alive, changed but alive. 

As for how it relates to Gor..  an online death, especially of a character that you created and nurtured and watched how it changed over time..  it bothers you when they do die.  Been there done that and I expect I'll do it again.  It hurt, physically like a part of yourself or someone you knew well did.  But it too can be lived with. 

Now I am down to your second post...ugh, I've rambled enough already huh?     But I'm going on anyways because I think I need to say it.  And I seldom need to say anything online. 

You are going on Maybe's and If's in that post.  Look at the opposite..  You ALL could have died in that no swim area..  What are the odds of enough of the people who were there being the "best swimmers" and "strongest men" combined into what was needed?  Maybe the best swimmers were the smallest females and the worst the strongest men..  The men panic and drown the strongest swimmers in that panic.  Same situation, death.  Just add more people. 

The highschool thing..  They are kids, children.  Even though society considers them adults..They are so young.  Very very few young wouldn't panic and freeze up when confronted with something like that.  I hate to say it, but most adults freeze up and panic as badly as kids do.  So it would make no difference. 

As far as them being males making a difference..  It might have, like the earlier paragraph with the swimmers I made..  More people might have died trying to save them if they had been girls.  And it would have been a bigger tragedy.  Like Rags said, death comes for us all.  It was their time to go. 

The most tragic part of this, in my opinion..  Is that you and your girlfriend are second guessing yourselves and beating yourselves up mentally over this with the "What If's".  It shows something about your personalities, your inner being, your characters...That you do second guess yourselves.  It shows there is a good person inside of you two.  It is also the greatest weakness, that you will always have that little voice in the back of your mind, that nightmare saying  "What If.."   It does get easier with time, but it takes a lot of time and it will never go away.  It will get quieter though, the "What If's.." fading slowly as you realize that you did what was best for your own lives, as you realize it was their time to go and nothing could have changed it. 

I want to say one last thing, then I promise I'll be quiet..  Do not keep this bottled up in you or your girlfriend.. TALK!  Talk to each other, work it out with each other.   HELP each other thru this.  But if you keep it bottled up and refuse to talk, it will eat you alive.  Don't let this ruin your sanity and make you question yourselves.

[razz|n.o.i.r]

Death happens within life. People make choices, and sometimes regret them. Survivor's guilt can eat someone up on the inside. The shoulda, coulda, and woulda side of it.

Although those boys made their choice? If someone dies. It does not matter their gender, age, race. It's a sad thing, and thats it.

-has a moment of silence for them-

[Raziel]

When one comes upon a situation you assess it.

Before you react, if you have the training, you ensure the area is safe.

With all safety points in check, you act.

Some do, some dont.  There is very little difference in Courage and Foolishness.  If you were to ask most veterans of wars and other "altercations" if they thought they were courageous and 9 times out of 10, they will tell you "Hell no!  I was young dumb and full of myself, thinking I was invincible."  Would I repeat the things Ive done in my past and youth when I was in the military, probably so, because though I was foolish, it was more than self preservation, it was protecting my buddies, my unit, my mission and the values I hold for our country.  Is that the same as saving a drowning victim?  Nope, not at all.  Training plays a major role in how we react.  I know the feelings of panic and anxiety that overtake you when drowning.  Drownproofing during combat diver school gives you first hand knowledge about it.  What has been stated has been correct.  Young probable athletes, realizing death, drowning, in panic will produce more adrenaline in that time frame than probably their whole lives.  They will not be rational nor coherent.  It will be primal as they fight to breathe, fight to live.  These are just a few things to consider and this is just from the victim side.  You also have to face the forces of nature and your own body.  Cold, muscle tension, physical fitness, rip currents, undertow, hidden obstructures etc.  Every trained ocean swimmer/diver is very familiar with things that can go wrong.  Majority of these things can also be applied at the lake and river.

Do not ask yourself what could you have done...but ask yourself what you learned.  There is a reason.  Maybe it is to appreciate what you have now and be thankful and live each day to your fullest.  Like Rags said, Death, she comes for us all.  Will you look back on your life and remember the good or the bad?  You never know when she will come knocking because life can be short but will it be lived?

Witnessing death can be tragic and for that I sympathize with you and yours.  It is easier to deal with that, than being the cause of death.  Stand up and count yourself blessed and talk with your girlfriend.  Get it out and off your chest and attempt to put it behind the both of you.  If not, it will haunt you all the time and thats no fun.

Raz

[Kimba~]

My GF read this thread today, and I think it helped.  Thanks!